Upsidedown Car. Now What?

[tobybasiliko]

Back to the roof thing.
I replaced my sunroof patch last winter, and was lying on my back
looking up at the roof for maybe the first time ever. And thought,
'ouch, that looks pokey'
So out came the helmet hook, the extra bits of sunroof
garbage, and I smoothed over all the sharp stuff.

Because if you're on your roof or side, why tear up
your suit as WELL as your car?

t

 

[Lynn Rimmer]

Toby, maybe you could find some fire-proof, tech inspected, driving suit mending - duct tape somewhere for "just in case". It works for everything else.
Oh wait.....if I recall correctly you have an abundance of duct tape in your pit, so ignore this post.

 

[Richard Broadhead]

"The Stewards specifically said NO back up yellows unless the station on waving asks for it."
Chief of Flags was OK with this?
...... There is no "One Size Fits All' flagging. sheesh.

Yes and, Yes. This is no longer a 'big secret' so.....

NWR SCCA lost their very experienced (and good) Chief of Flags. Mike Evans sorta walked off after a fiasco at Bremerton. One part of which was him standing looking at a barrel in the middle of the racing line and having the Steward several 100 yards away telling him it wasn't (one of several things). Mike also did not come out for the Monday final day of the Double National due to some bizarre flag things that happened Sunday. One of only THREE times since I came back to the flags in 1995 where a RED FLAG was needed and none called for. That was an E-crew in danger situation too.

Dave Kantela has taken over and will be a good C of F with some experience.

Monday morning there weren't enough people at the workers meeting to put one person on every corner. Slowly we got a few more and ended up with all but 1 and 3B covered and some actually had 2 people.

Some of these guys running Nationals are really going for it. Their regions championship and a shot at the runoffs. So the racing is pretty intense. Need GOOD experienced turn workers for that.

 

[Turfer]

Turn stations should go waving yellow anytime a worker leaves a turn station. There is really no safe place on foot next to a track in any condition of other than a cold track. We don't employ enough "full course cautions" to "black flag all". This is the safest for the responders. It also maintains track time for the paying participants. This should be an ICSCC rule requirement, that a waving yellow is displayed when a worker leaves a turn station. Maybe we can make this a rule this coming year.

Come talk to me about getting out of a rolled car. From my Pro Rally days I have done 100mph endos through the trees, luckily not hiiting any square. Just relax and ride it out... wait for the last impact, there is almost aways one more. (If it felt like your eyeballs were coming out of there sockets then maybe the Hans Device hadn't been introduced yet.) Then check yourself, your co driver, your surroundings, and get out if appropriate. If you have a fuel cell, check for fire as there is a disproportionate number of fires related to cars with fuels cells installed.


The reason why I strap my shoelaces in (to not get caught on pedals) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wN-1...EAA57D67&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=22

R

 

[Ken Killam]

It's not so much the way that the yellow is displayed as how it is adhered to by the recipient of that display. If the drivers won't 'give way', it doesn't matter if you display it standing, waving, double waving, or sitting on it and spinning.

If "Control" really isn't, then...

 

[Richard Broadhead]

Turn stations should go waving yellow anytime a worker leaves a turn station. There is really no safe place on foot next to a track in any condition of other than a cold track. We don't employ enough "full course cautions" to "black flag all". This is the safest for the responders. It also maintains track time for the paying participants......

We do go waving when a worker leaves the station (at least I do). That is NOT the problem. I do agree with your comment about maintaining track time for the drivers. Even as a worker, the LAST thing I want to see happen is a Black Flag all.

I'd like to see every issue that does not involve serious track blockage handled with local yellows and whites.

I also appreciate that a driver who has just backed off maybe 300 to 500 RPM from his 'normal' cornering speed at any point 'probably' has the car under 100% control without any risk. Which is why I feel reasonably 'safe' responding to disabled cars in 'most' places.

Having said that, it is heart thumping to be standing next to a disabled car on the outside of the exit of T-5 or T-6 at Pacific and despite a waving yellow, cars are using the FULL width of the road and 'drifting' out of the corner under FULL throttle acceleration! No worry's ... LOL I trust the drivers.... foolish me.

What leads to full course yellows and black flags is when the E-crew arrives with lights flashing and put 3 or 5 people out on the track and there's STILL no sign of some serious reduction in velocity.

 

[westipton]

We continue to talk about drivers not slowing for yellows, but it's time to do something about it. Any experienced driver worth his salt will slow down and wave his arm as best he can to warn those behind him, while giving the E-crew or corner personnel room to do their work. The argument of course is how much should I slow while still maintaining contact with the cars ahead of me who aren't slowing as much as I am? For those drivers who insist in blowing through these incidents there is only one recourse, and that is firstly a black flag, then a lenghty chat from a steward in the hot pits, followed by a hefty fine! Racing through a waving yellow is inexcusable, and it happens much too often, so let's get tougher on the violators. The advantage they gain rushing through that yellow will do them no good while they are sitting with Bill or Tom in the hot pit lane having their chat!

 

[mikecolangelo]

Come talk to me about getting out of a rolled car. From my Pro Rally days I have done 100mph endos through the trees, luckily not hiiting any square. Just relax and ride it out... wait for the last impact, there is almost aways one more. (If it felt like your eyeballs were coming out of there sockets then maybe the Hans Device hadn't been introduced yet.) Then check yourself, your co driver, your surroundings, and get out if appropriate.

R

Hey, Rick! Guess what I just picked up? I'm looking for a co-driver with experience in crashing. Gimme a call!

 

[Richard Broadhead]

We continue to talk about drivers not slowing for yellows, but it's time to do something about it. Any experienced driver worth his salt will slow down and wave his arm as best he can to warn those behind him...

You know, Wes, that goes WAY BACK in the history of road racing. I hope I taught Jeff to do that as I did when I was behind the wheel. I know he acknowledges the flag with a little wave of the hand cause I've seen him do that. That's enough to at lest let the corner worker know, 'Yes I'm being a little more careful then usual'.

But now that you mention it. I CANNOT recall ever seeing a driver coming at me when I'm in those situations signaling the car behind that he's slowing due to a 'hazard' ahead.

 

[Steve Adams]

I think it's more a case of drivers waving their arm to warn cars behind them that they're slowing more than they would otherwise be expected to, especially if the cars behind are close and/or actively racing the car in front. By the time they're anywhere near workers on track, the waving and slowing is (should be!!) already done.

 

[mikeblaszczak]

This will probably get me in trouble but, I must say, ICSCC Race Control and our club Stewards are much more on the ball in assesing track situations and calling for the proper flag conditions.

When I was Steward (I'm not, anymore) I trusted the radio. The people on the radio were more experienced than me, almost without exception. The people on the radio were also closer to the incident than I was, almost without exception. Their opinion and evaluation of the situation was all I needed to act. In fact, in more than one chief's meeting, I told control and chief of flags that they should assume control of the course and tell me about what happened an why, later.

It just made sense to give them this control. First, because of their experience. Next, because of their proximity to the situation. The time they would explain the situation to me is seconds that would be better used getting control of the track so that the pace car or whatever was needed could be delivered sooner than later.

Under yellows, slow the **** down, bottom line. Even in a bad rain, there's no reason to crash under yellow, at all, even if we might agree that the Stewards or the flags might have made a mistake.

Other stewards might have different opinions, and that's why we change stewards --so that one ideology doesn't saturate Conference. But I can't imagine they'll differ that much on what I've said here.

I've mentioned before that I drive while listening to a scanner. I know what's going on, and I hear it as it happens. If I'm in turn 7 and Turn 2 is hanging laundry, I know about it half a lap ahead of time. I strongly encourage all drivers to do the same. I also know that the yellow is because of something that's already cleared (spin and continue, for example) or because of something very serious (an alert call, and bad debris, for example).

If I'm heading to a yellow I'll slow down. If I think I'm being threatened on my six, I'll hang my fist out the window. I'd like other drivers to find a not-a-point-by signal that we agree upon to help each other slow down. If I go fifty miles an hour under a yellow and you think that's too slow, feel free to pass me.

This is club racing. You get a cool plaque, or a little clock, or something. You don't get a ride in NASCAR, you don't get a contract from Chip. It'll be tough enough to tell Liz why I bent my car; it'll be impossible to tell her that I have to go to the hospital to apologize to someone who's on their back because of my actions.

 

[Richard Broadhead]

When I was Steward (I'm not, anymore) I trusted the radio. The people on the radio were more experienced than me, almost without exception. The people on the radio were also closer to the incident than I was, almost without exception. Their opinion and evaluation of the situation was all I needed to act. In fact, in more than one chief's meeting, I told control and chief of flags that they should assume control of the course and tell me about what happened an why, later. ons.

Good way to run the show, Mike. I have NEVER heard an ICSCC Steward "down grade" a flag condition that was called for by a corner station. On the other hand, as corner workers we would NEVER say the words red flag or black flag all from a corner station. As all we can do is 'suggest' things, just saying those words on the radio (and the occasionally poor radio performance) could lead a different station to hang a flag that hasn't been called by Race Control. That would be very a bad thing.

Which leads me to an experience with SCCA that really, really had me seeing RED!

If you've ever raced Bremerton, the long front straight ends in a really bumpy braking zone in to a 90 degree left with a 5 foot birm about 10 feet off the track, right. Skip Yokum came down in to the braking zone and something let go on his front suspension. So he took the escape lane and stopped. We went WAVING YELLOW (he was in an impact zone) and I responded with a fire bottle (only experienced worker at the station) and also had the radio on me. Skip was okay and we started walking the 75 yards back to the station between the racing surface and the birm with cars screaming into the braking zone (under waving yellow because WE were walking within about 5 feet of the track) and bouncing around.

A Steward came on the radio and started CHEWING my rear out as to why the station was waving yellow. Explained to him that we were walking next to the track and in danger. He continued reaming me out and telling me to go standing yellow because, we were not on the racing surface.. LOLOL I did not down grade the flag till we were back in the station.

Mike Evans (C of F) spent half the lunch hour trying to convince me waving on paving, standing in the grass applied. I listened and countered but finally gave up the discussion still seeing red! Didn't convince me that 2 hewmans weren't worth anything more then a parked car.

..... I've mentioned before that I drive while listening to a scanner. I know what's going on, and I hear it as it happens.......

Wow, some races you sure listen to a lot of 'trash talk'

Sometimes all the useless 'jabber' on the radio drives us nuts! Can't imagine trying to drive fast and listen to Race Control Net. But I guess after a while you can weed out the interesting from the 'bull'.

 

[Mark de Regt]

Sure we all should slow at a yellow. But we all know that the ambiguity of a yellow flag (some are very dangerous conditions, warranting a lot of slowing, some are much less dangerous, warranting very little slowing; we don't know whether it is until we see the situation) results in many (most?) keeping the foot down and an extra eye out for what may have caused the yellow. That's fact, whether we like it or not, and to react by talking punishment rather than safety is, IMO, bass ackwards.

We can talk about punishing those who don't slow "enough," but it's all irrelevant the first time a worker gets hit. And people do miss a yellow when glued to the bumper of the car in front of them, especially a standing yellow at the bottom of a hill around a corner. Why risk a worker's life to everyone in a race (i) seeing the yellow at the bottom of a hill around a corner, and (ii) reacting correctly to that yellow? You can be sure that I would have no interest, as a worker, in putting my life at risk in that circumstance. Perhaps those who make the decisions on FCY need to spend a bit more time in the trenches; nothing like having to run for your life to give religion.

Why pretend that we can keep racing on a very wet track, with people dangerously exposed at the end of the braking zone into 3B? Our workers are remarkably dedicated, but there is no "balancing" of the needs of the racers to have the race go on, and the safety of the workers, when they're working in an impact zone, especially in rain. The decision not to go FCY when Gary went off was wrong, as was the decision not to have an immediate waving yellow at 2B. It was a steady rain, 20 minutes into a race where it started raining before we went to pre-grid, and most cars were sliding around; I am sure a number already had taken the escape road already).

Whether I'm racing or flagging, I think that the top priority should be safety, and any doubt at all should get decided in the direction of safety. Throw the FCY if people are in a very dangerous situation.

 

[Richard Broadhead]

Sure we all should slow at a yellow. But we all know that the ambiguity of a yellow flag (some are very dangerous conditions, warranting a lot of slowing, some are much less dangerous, warranting very little slowing; we don't know whether it is until we see the situation) results in many (most?) keeping the foot down and an extra eye out for what may have caused the yellow. That's fact, whether we like it or not, and to react by talking punishment rather than safety is, IMO, bass ackwards.....

Really, there's nothing ambiguous about the yellow flag.

1.
If it's waving, you KNOW there's something on the racing surface that's a hazard to you or other people. If you cannot see what it is, you better be going slow enough to STOP very, very quickly because you may not have the option of an evasive maneuver.

2.
If it's standing, there's a new hazard that is not blocking the racing line. But you better be REAL sure you have enough control over your car not to leave the pavement under any circumstances AND you better be going slow enough to maneuver your car in such a way the humans (who may be next to the track) do not feel threatened by your approach angle.

.... but it's all irrelevant the first time a worker gets hit......

Yes that could happen without proper caution by the remaining drivers in a race.

When I respond I watch approaching traffic until I get to the car.

At that point I have to focus for a moment on the driver. Is he okay (give the proper signal back to the station). Should he get out or stay in the car (make that decision and go with it). What will it take to get the car out of there, flat tow, tilt bed, wrecker? Does it need to be now or post session (make that decision and signal the station).

If he gets out, we move away from the racing surface.

If he's going to stay in the car, then I STAY with him watching approaching cars. I'm more concerned about somebody running in to him then I am myself. I try to convince oncoming drivers to move to the side of the track AWAY from the disabled car. I'm able to 'take evasive action' to an errant car but, he cannot. I don't mind a car approaching me a 90+ MPH if he's way over on the other side of the track. BUT, once the E-crew arrives if called for, you better NOT try that! That is what leads to a lot of BLACK FLAG ALLS.

NOTE:
If the car is in a very bad location, I strongly suggest to the driver that he stay firmly belted in the car with safety gear on. He's 'safer' there then getting half way out and having another car hit him. Better to let us try and control traffic until a tow arrives or, call for a full course 'something' if they aren't behaving.

What frosts me is watching on coming cars who know full good and well there's a disabled car at the outer edge of the racing surface. But rather then move toward the center of the track, they're using all of the pavement right out to the edge and making me very nervous. Scrubing just a little more speed to stay 6 to 8 feet away from the outer edge and a disabled car won't lose you that much distance and sure would make us feel safer.

 

[Mark de Regt]

Really, there's nothing ambiguous about the yellow flag.

I disagree. Strongly. And, by their reactions to yellows, it is clear that most drivers also disagree with this statement. Sure, a yellow is a caution. By definition. But the cause of that caution could vary anywhere from being a car well out of any real danger to a car sideways just around the next bend. Do you slow to half speed for a car that has spun 30 feet off the racing surface, and not in the likely line of any traffic, almost no matter what happens? Of course not. And, as long as there's no rescue vehicle there, the vast majority of (indeed, all) racers will keep going essentially full speed in that instance.

The very fact that we sometimes get a waving yellow, to get our attention, is just official understanding that a yellow can mean any of an entire spectrum of problems (and, by the way, there was only a standing yellow at 3a the first time by after Gary rolled there, and nothing at 2b; the second time by, after David had joined Gary, there was a waving yellow and a white at 3a, and still nothing at 2b; and the rescue truck was partially blocking access to the escape road, and not protecting Gary's car).

I'm not arguing the theory of how we're supposed to react to a yellow. I'm just scratching my head at why there's any hesitation to put out a FCY when drivers and/or workers are really exposed. "Racing" and "caution" are mutually exclusive; when racing is an obvious danger to disabled car and rescue workers, racing should stop. Immediately. That means, at the least, a FCY.

 

[Richard Broadhead]

...... I'm just scratching my head at why there's any hesitation to put out a FCY when drivers and/or workers are really exposed.....

Mark, we could indeed put out a FCY EVERY time anything happens any where when a worker leaves the station.

But I think it's the goal of most workers and Tower Staff to try and clear up issues with the MINIMUM disruption to the on going race. At most venues we are under tight end-of-day time restrictions. So we cannot stop the clock for double yellows or black flag alls.

If we FCY or black flag every time a disabled car needs to be reponded to, it would probably use up an hour to 1.5 hours of racing time per day.

Not good for drivers (who pay to be at racing speed). Not good for spectators (who come out to see cars racing not parading). Not necessary (if the 'rules' are followed).

..... But the cause of that caution could vary anywhere from being a car well out of any real danger to a car sideways just around the next bend. Do you slow to half speed for a car that has spun 30 feet off the racing surface.....

Exactly and the 'driver actions' should be as stated in 1 and 2 above. But until you KNOW and have seen what the problem is, you should be at reduced speed. Even with a car 30 feet off the racing surface remember, YOU too could end up over there given a bad move on your part. Please do not join the party.

 

[westipton]

Mark, my point, quite simply was about drivers not slowing at incidents that require them to slow, usually drastically. We all, (most), know how to judge a yellow, but anytime a waving yellow is seen, the drivers need to react to it and SLOW down. Period. There is no grey area there whatsoever. If you don't slow down you get a lecture or a fine, or both as warranted. What's so hard about that? And that defintely does not mean 'keeping your foot down and a eye out for the problem'.
You stated that "we can talk about punishing those who do not slow enough, but it's all irrevelent the first time a worker gets hit." Yes, that's my point exactly. I have seen workers hit before, more than once, and I never want to see it again. Each time it was too much speed and a failure to react to the yellow flag. So rather than addressing this issue you want what, FCY at every incident?

 

[Mark de Regt]

I agree with you both. My point is that, in the particular incident being discussed (Group 3 national race Sunday at the NWR Memorial Day double), it should not have been even a difficult call, in my opinion as a racer on the track at the time. The track was very, very slippery. Rain was coming down steadily. The first car over-shot the braking zone, as had a number already (the others took the escape road). This was the braking zone into 3A at Pacific Raceways, the bottom of a fairly steep hill, where even our Miatas are braking from 100 down to 45 or so. The first car was disabled in a very exposed position, where the next guy who overshoots the braking zone likely will hit him. Then the rescue truck comes, and adds people who are exposed (and, inadvertently, partially block the escape road, thereby increasing the danger to the first car and themselves). To me, this is a no-brainer--FCY. But there wasn't even a waving yellow; just a standing yellow, and nothing at the 2B station indicating that there's a serious situation ahead.

It's like when someone slides into the tire wall coming out of turn 2 at PIR; you simply can't allow racing to continue while the car is disabled, and especially while the rescue truck is there.

There are lots of time when nobody wants or needs a FCY. But there certainly are times where it shouldn't be a hard choice. In my opinion as one who was racing in that race (and who really hates FCY), there should have been a FCY as soon as the truck got on the track.

 

[mikeblaszczak]

Wow, some races you sure listen to a lot of 'trash talk'

Sometimes all the useless 'jabber' on the radio drives us nuts! Can't imagine trying to drive fast and listen to Race Control Net. But I guess after a while you can weed out the interesting from the 'bull'.

Some people can filter it, some can't. I spent the last 10 minutes of the G4 race in PIR this weekend listening to workers exchange raffle ticket numbers, for example. That's fine, but if I didn't like it, I can delete the "secondary" channel from my scanner and only listen to primary calls. I've never seen a scanner without a power switch.

Race Control is not really that chatty; they're great at moving optional conversations to the secondary channel so that the primary can be clear for priority calls.

For me, it's actually kind of soothing. When I don't have the scanner, I feel like I'm in the car wondering what's going on, and if everything is okay.

 

[Ken Killam]

For your listening pleasure, we'll try to remember to give you specific updates as we get them.

And now that I am more aware of a virtually captured audience...

The posibilities are endless. Can you say Section 15? Study up, I'll play "flash card" communications at our next event. By the time I'm done you 'scanners' should have a well practiced understanding of the 'Rules of the Road' ala Fats. It'll be like "story time".

We can hope that it serves to further entertain, and perhaps educate you all.