mikecolangelo
Well-known member
Nice driving Lee!
Rose City Opener XIX is now available on motorsportreg.com
- Thread starter holly_remington
- Start date
the_driver
Eric Blois
i forgot i had that one too and much better quality.
Ken Killam
Fats
There's a Grp 6!!
Whew!
Whew!
Richard Broadhead
Flag & Com
That is shocking but it's up to 5 now.
Missing 8 CF's, 2 FA's, 8 FC's, 8 FF's and 5 FM's or 31 possible entry's
But there's always hope for trackside entry's. Sadly, one of them won't be US.
Look on the bright side. Group 3 is PACKED compared to Group 6. Lee is gonna run his F/SR around with a Crossle 25F chasing him.
LOOKS like most of the open wheel crowd needs a tax cut!!
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clintonracing
something witty
So, my intent here really isn't to be a bad guy. And I'm not asking the question to intentionally stir up a hornets nest... but I think I should ask anyway.
Has there been any discussion about combining groups 3 and 6 in the past? And if so, should that conversation be brought up again?
It seems like (AND it is very likely that I am mistaken) that the cars from group 3 and 6 don't run BOTH groups. And that the speed differential is that different.
For example from Qual times
2008
PIR No-Chicane G3 times varied from 1:10-1:23
G6 times varied from 1:13-1:30
2009
PIR No-Chicane G3 times varied from 1:07-1:20
G6 times varied from 1:06-1:27
2008
Pacific Raceways G3 times varied from 1:25-1:38
G6 times varied from 1:19-1:55
2009
Pacific Raceways G3 times varied from 1:20-1:44
G6 times varied from 1:31-1:43
Obviously that's not a statistical analysis, but just a quick looks seems to make the combination feasible.
The next question would be then, what to do with the time saved? I don't have any proposals, but I'm sure as an organization we could find the right answer.
Has there been any discussion about combining groups 3 and 6 in the past? And if so, should that conversation be brought up again?
It seems like (AND it is very likely that I am mistaken) that the cars from group 3 and 6 don't run BOTH groups. And that the speed differential is that different.
For example from Qual times
2008
PIR No-Chicane G3 times varied from 1:10-1:23
G6 times varied from 1:13-1:30
2009
PIR No-Chicane G3 times varied from 1:07-1:20
G6 times varied from 1:06-1:27
2008
Pacific Raceways G3 times varied from 1:25-1:38
G6 times varied from 1:19-1:55
2009
Pacific Raceways G3 times varied from 1:20-1:44
G6 times varied from 1:31-1:43
Obviously that's not a statistical analysis, but just a quick looks seems to make the combination feasible.
The next question would be then, what to do with the time saved? I don't have any proposals, but I'm sure as an organization we could find the right answer.
Ken Killam
Fats
703. E. The race groups will be set by the Executive Board at each Fall
Meeting. The order of the race groups for the event, as designated
under 703 (D) & (E), shall also be published in the race
announcement. With prior approval of the Race Steward, the Race
Chairman may split and/or combine the race groups to maintain size of
grid. Formula or Sports Racing cars may not be combined with
Production, IT, or GT class cars, except that Novice Race Groups can
be combined at the License Director’s discretion where scheduling
and/or group size considerations dictate.
So really the Race Chairman has that option, but of course, must wait until the day of the show and the final tally of entries before they might petition the Race Steward for a change in the schedule. At that point everybody would be at the track, and would need to let all of those drivers involved know of the change, and re-produce a corrected event schedule... All on the day of the show. So it can be done, but not without some hoops.
Maybe we could just go home early. Trying to prognosticate anything to fill the space (another special event) would be presumptuous, so that makes it hard to use the time for much else.
Meeting. The order of the race groups for the event, as designated
under 703 (D) & (E), shall also be published in the race
announcement. With prior approval of the Race Steward, the Race
Chairman may split and/or combine the race groups to maintain size of
grid. Formula or Sports Racing cars may not be combined with
Production, IT, or GT class cars, except that Novice Race Groups can
be combined at the License Director’s discretion where scheduling
and/or group size considerations dictate.
So really the Race Chairman has that option, but of course, must wait until the day of the show and the final tally of entries before they might petition the Race Steward for a change in the schedule. At that point everybody would be at the track, and would need to let all of those drivers involved know of the change, and re-produce a corrected event schedule... All on the day of the show. So it can be done, but not without some hoops.
Maybe we could just go home early. Trying to prognosticate anything to fill the space (another special event) would be presumptuous, so that makes it hard to use the time for much else.
Richard Broadhead
Flag & Com
Yes, that has been discussed in the past. However, last year both Group 3 and 6 had VERY good turn outs. So it's hard to judge the year based upon the 1st race of the season. Economic impact? Hmmm.... not sure just yet.
As far as lap times go, that is not the issue. It's the style of cars.
Group 3 has always been ALL open wheel. Part of the reason ICSCC lost a GOOD sized contingent of FV's was moving them to Group 6 where they had to run with sports racers and FL's (like illegal FA's and in the past, FC's). Group 6 is also the current home of novice open wheel drivers which has worked out very well over the last 2 years because of the quality of the senior drivers in the group.
Assuming future races have a reasonable turn out of FF's, CF's, FC's and FM's Group 3 won't be an issue.
Last year, Group 6 had 35 different drivers entering races.
Last year, Group 3 had 36 different drivers entering races.
I don't think it's time to look at this as a systemic problem, yet. Would LOVE to see more sports racers turn out. And heck if the FV's came back, they'd almost have their own run group now!
Rather then being 'group selective' the bigger issue is the TOTAL of 149 entry's. That is down from the 'norm'. As I recall, we're usually up in the 165 to over 200 including double group guys.
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thomas_liesner
TPFD Best Care Anywhere
Actually Rick, If I remember right the season opener in Portland is always lightly attended. 150 entries seems the norm to me, but I wouldnt say no if more showed up.
duane_martinsen
Let's go racing
Not only has there been discussion on this subject but it happened as early as last year in Spokane. The Group 3 & Group 6 drivers got together with the Steward and combined the race. There was I believe a total of 14 cars and from my viewpoint they played well together. I seem to remember that D. Boggs won overall as he was pitted next to our PRO-7 group and had a smile that lasted all day long...
Richard Broadhead
Flag & Com
That does make a lot of sense when the numbers are WAY down in one of the groups/or both. The drivers in 3/6 do know how to play together.
When Dick has his game on, he and that Stohr are hard to beat!
clintonracing
something witty
This obviously isn't the right thread to be discussing this... sorry Steve!
EPIC FAILURE ON MY PART! Sorry
EPIC FAILURE ON MY PART! Sorry
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Richard Broadhead
Flag & Com
That may well be true. However for open wheel and sports racers that's not terrible. After all, ICSCC did eliminate the entire open wheel novice run group by combining them with Group 6.
What's the objective of the comments? ELIMINATE all open wheel and sports racers from ICSCC?? Classes ebb and flow over the years. ICSCC needs to keep a home for ALL forms of road racing cars.
What's the objective of the comments? ELIMINATE all open wheel and sports racers from ICSCC?? Classes ebb and flow over the years. ICSCC needs to keep a home for ALL forms of road racing cars.
Steve Adams
Just this guy, ya know?
Part of the work I've been doing for the site redesign involves taking past class champions (back to 1975) and putting them into a database. Back in the day, it was all about small-bore, production-based cars and open wheel/sports racers. In fact, over time, the OW classes have been more constant than the CW.
lee_fjellanger
Well-known member
Clintonracing "senior member" wrote,
"I took a look ---- and come up with the following car counts per race
2009 G3 - 9.6; G6 - 9.2"
What were/are you looking at?
(the numbers are kinda bad/ugly, but let us not distort them!)
In counting Group 6 last year, Race results, races 1 through 12, I see:
11-16-17-10-4-4-21-14-15-14-16-17,
which I total to be 159, which I divide by 12 to find 13.3.
(NOT 9.2!)
And my math for Group 3 also varies considerably from yours.
What is most likely to "stir up a hornet's nest" is using false figures
or reasoning, when you try to take rice from your neighbor's bowl.
By the way, at Portland's Rose City Opener, or any one race,
if the numbers are indeed clearly recognized as being slim/few/ugly,
(Yes, 4 is few)
I will not complain about that merger.
"I took a look ---- and come up with the following car counts per race
2009 G3 - 9.6; G6 - 9.2"
What were/are you looking at?
(the numbers are kinda bad/ugly, but let us not distort them!)
In counting Group 6 last year, Race results, races 1 through 12, I see:
11-16-17-10-4-4-21-14-15-14-16-17,
which I total to be 159, which I divide by 12 to find 13.3.
(NOT 9.2!)
And my math for Group 3 also varies considerably from yours.
What is most likely to "stir up a hornet's nest" is using false figures
or reasoning, when you try to take rice from your neighbor's bowl.
By the way, at Portland's Rose City Opener, or any one race,
if the numbers are indeed clearly recognized as being slim/few/ugly,
(Yes, 4 is few)
I will not complain about that merger.
Ken Killam
Fats
Yeah...
What does "prior approval" really mean?
What does "prior approval" really mean?
jharvey
Well-known member
It's funny how the discussion about combining group 3 and 6 keeps coming up. For those who have been around conference for the past 15-20 years, you will remember when there were about 4 BMW's and 50 club rabbits and 25+ club ford's. Ebb and flow, ebb and flow. It's much easier to eliminate a group than it is to add one. Kind of like taxes, once you have them, they are hard to change.
clintonracing
something witty
Whoa whoa, calm down. I apologize for ruffling your feathers. I was just asking the question, there was no intent behind it.
I fully apologize. I realize the error of my ways. I was looking at the point totals for the season to determine car count. I obviously missed novices and non-Conference drivers. You're numbers are corret. It really was an honest mistake. I was not trying to fudge numbers to prove a point.
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Ken Killam
Fats
MMmmmm... fudge.
The numbers are crawling up though. Keep those good thoughts.
The numbers are crawling up though. Keep those good thoughts.
Richard Broadhead
Flag & Com
No problem, I admit being defensive of the open wheel and sports racer crowd (no matter how thin it is). It's the result of my childhood growing up in the sport around the likes of Jim Hall, Bob Bondurant, Hap Sharp and Lister-Jags, Old Yeller, Hageman Special, Birdcage Maserati, Chapparal, Lotus 11's, Formula Jr's, etc.
I certainly enjoy tin-top racing but my heart belongs to the above classes.